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Titel: updates and upgrades
 Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 11:50 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
Beiträge: 52
Wohnort: 504945N, 01912W
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Please forgive the ignorance here.
I think I've missed something in my readings of posts, manual, faq's etc.
I notice that theres a later kernel version (I'm currently using 2.6.17.11) available.
I'm quite happily using 2005-04 kanotix version.
I tried to look for posts, but unfortunately, most of the ones that appear on a general search are in German (and by changing the search criteria to all available - english forum doesn't give me any help).
The manual, in the update section, says about how to update/upgrade kernel and/or entire distribution (which isn't a surprise as it's based on the excellent debian), but it alludes to "choosing option 1" or maybe 2 (I don't recall which does the kernel update and which does the entire dist) - though it's irrelevant as I have absolutely no idea where to find these options.
Is there something that I don't have installed ?? I only really need the kernel to be upgraded/updated, but does the dist upgrade change "it" so that I'd be running the 2006-01-RC3 ??
Do I need to do that to get the lastest kernel (presumably the "quoted" stable version) ? Or can I just run the updater/upgrader to get the newer kernel version ?
I would appreciate it if someone could advise/guide me on this and again, I apologise if my question seems a bit dumb. I'm just rather confused as to how to achieve this.
regards
fatbloke. |
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Titel: RE: updates and upgrades
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 12:03 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 25. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 2133
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fatbloke, there are three major ways to upgrade your system:
1. Kernel update. This will only update the kernel, but you may have to (re-)install some of the new driver modules that are provided with the kernel in order to get network cards running again.
2. Dist-upgrade. All software packages are upgraded to the latest versions, excluding the kernel.
3. Update install. Can be done only using latest Kanotix cd. All data in your home folder and personal settings will be preserved, but you have to reinstall programs that you added and that are not the cd.
For upgrades #1 and #2 you should use h2's script, which will guide through the process. |
_________________
And I ain't got no worries 'cause I ain't in no hurry at all (Doobie Brothers, "Black Water").
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Titel: RE: updates and upgrades
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 13:10 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389
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Hi FB, my guess is that you are probably missing kanotix control center, or knxcc. You can just apt-get knxcc. It has an option to install new kanotix kernels.
If however you wish to dist-upgrade you should use h2's script as advised. Just look for any post by h2 and look for links in his sig. Be advised that if you have not been dist-upgrading for a long time it is quite a major undertaking. Many have reported that h2's script has led safely to shore, but you should take the usual precautions to make backups.
If you have a fully upgraded system it will be close to RC3, except for some configurations, I imagine (have not installed RC3 myself). I think h2's script helps with the new graphics, boot splash and all. On the other hand, installing RC3 gives you exactly RC3.  |
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Titel: Re: RE: updates and upgrades
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 14:15 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 526
Wohnort: Waliser Märze
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stryder hat folgendes geschrieben::
Hi FB, my guess is that you are probably missing kanotix control center, or knxcc. You can just apt-get knxcc. It has an option to install new kanotix kernels.
stryder, if knxcc has a kernel install option I can,t see it in knxcc or knxcc-kde.There was a Kanotix-Update-GUI by A.Loibl not sure if that is still available. The wiki says to use Kano,s script for kernels but I did like Loibi's gui. H2's script seems to have taken over. |
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: updates and upgrades
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 14:18 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 08. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 300
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| H2's script does the trick though |
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Titel: RE: updates and upgrades
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 14:19 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
Beiträge: 52
Wohnort: 504945N, 01912W
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Well, I installed the knxcc and was a little confused to find no menu entry for it after a restart. So I figured it must be one of those CLI tools, and bingo, found it.
I went through the various options - lots of 'em - and found absolutely nothing that gave me a clue as to how I might achieve this. Damn!
So I'm off to search too see if I can find more info about "H2's script" which I have seen various mentions of around the forums.
I'll post back.
Thankyou both for the replies.
regards
fatbloke |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 14:20 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 04. Apr 2006
Beiträge: 153
Wohnort: Melbourne, Australia
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| apt-get install kanotix-update-gui |
_________________
Kanotix Easter RC4 on a dual boot P4 and a production box Desktop KDE::
Kanotix 2006 Easter RC4 on a P2 and Production Box , Desktop KDE::
Kanotix EasterRC4 on a MMX 199Mhz lappy
and a Production Box, Desktop ICEWM::
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 14:35 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 526
Wohnort: Waliser Märze
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bluewater hat folgendes geschrieben::
apt-get install kanotix-update-gui
Apt say no package that name and also looked through synaptic for similar named packages can,t find anything. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 15:00 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
Beiträge: 52
Wohnort: 504945N, 01912W
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Well the apt-get install kanotix-update-gui worked fine. I then found the kanotix-update-gui in K>systems and told it that I wanted to update the kernel, I selected the newer version of the same one that I was using. Which seemed to go fine.
It then proceeded to give me a long list of things that it asked if I wanted to install - most of which I either hadn't heard of or was unnecessary (madwifi, ndiswrapper to name the two that I KNOW I don't need).
It then told me that it would need to reboot the system - which it did.
The new kernel booted, the system then asked me some questions and then started "doing its stuff", which seemed fine.
I now find myself having to boot the live CD so I can ask what the hell I need to do now! The X server won't start, and I haven't a clue what I'd need to do to get a screen back from the HD install!
I'm just looking through the Xorg.0.log to see if theres anything that I can recognise - to get a clue as to whats going on.
I can see 4 items marked as (EE).
(EE) No Input driver matching `kbd'
(EE) module ABI minor version (6) is newer than the server's version (5)
(EE) Failed to load module "kbd" (module requirement mismatch, 0)
(EE) Failed to load module "speedo" (module does not exist, 0)
Now the only one that I am vaguely familiar with, is the "speedo" thing - Isn't that something to do with fonts ???
The rest is unfamiliar, and I have absolutely no idea how to mend it (especially with only CLI on the HDD install and the aggrevation of getting to the HDD through the live CD).
Can anyone point me in the right direction please ???
regards
fatbloke |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 15:09 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 04. Apr 2006
Beiträge: 153
Wohnort: Melbourne, Australia
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titan
For upgrading the kernel you have 2 choices (maybe more), you can open konsole and type
wget -Nc http://debian.tu-bs.de/project/kanotix/ ... urrent.zip
or you can use a GUI
You can add (copy & paste) this to your source list
# Loibl's Scripte
deb http://www.andreas-loibl.de/linux/debian/ ./
Which is located at
/etc/apt/sources.list (right click on the sources.list) > Action > Edit as Root (password) SAVE after you enter the new source
Open Konsole login as root (su or sux, password)
apt-get update
If you get a key error, copy and paste this
gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net --recv-keys 3C9C56BDF781E713
hit enter, then copy and paste this
apt-key add /root/.gnupg/pubring.gpg
hit enter again
Then apt-get update again
apt-get install kanotix-update-gui
From there you can update the kernel
It will be located in K-menu > System > Kanotix-Update-GUI
the other option and is h2 script http://techpatterns.com/forums/about736.html
(I copied this from a piper post  ) |
_________________
Kanotix Easter RC4 on a dual boot P4 and a production box Desktop KDE::
Kanotix 2006 Easter RC4 on a P2 and Production Box , Desktop KDE::
Kanotix EasterRC4 on a MMX 199Mhz lappy
and a Production Box, Desktop ICEWM::
Zuletzt bearbeitet von bluewater am 24.09.2006, 15:13 Uhr, insgesamt ein Mal bearbeitet
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Titel: Re: RE: updates and upgrades
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 15:12 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389
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titan hat folgendes geschrieben::
stryder hat folgendes geschrieben::
Hi FB, my guess is that you are probably missing kanotix control center, or knxcc. You can just apt-get knxcc. It has an option to install new kanotix kernels.
stryder, if knxcc has a kernel install option I can,t see it in knxcc or knxcc-kde.There was a Kanotix-Update-GUI by A.Loibl not sure if that is still available. The wiki says to use Kano,s script for kernels but I did like Loibi's gui. H2's script seems to have taken over.
 My bad. Problem with speaking from memory. Yes, I meant the kanotix-update-gui (I think!). Well, I least I remember using some gui thingy to update the kernel and it does all the init 3 thingy automatically for you. Sorry FB, my mistake. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 15:14 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 03. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 1544
Wohnort: out there somewhere
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You could try in init 3 or just do ctrl+alt+f1 fix-fonts and then reinstall your video card to see if you can get into x.
I highly recommend h2's script (link in my sig) for d-u and kernel upgrades but......
In the future if you want to use Kanotix-Update-GUI
You can add (copy & paste) this to your source list
# Loibl's Scripte
deb http://www.andreas-loibl.de/linux/debian/ ./
Which is located at
/etc/apt/sources.list (right click on the sources.list) > Action > Edit as Root (password) SAVE after you enter the new source
Open Konsole login as root (su or sux, password)
apt-get update
If you get a key error, copy and paste this
gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net --recv-keys 3C9C56BDF781E713 (or the last 8 digits)
hit enter, then copy and paste this
apt-key add /root/.gnupg/pubring.gpg
hit enter again
Then apt-get update again
apt-get install kanotix-update-gui
From there you can update the kernel
It will be located in K-menu > System > Kanotix-Update-GUI
**EDIT**: Sorry bluewater as the time of this writing I did not see your post regarding this (kanotix-update-gui) |
_________________
h2's d-u script
h2's rdiff-backup script
Zuletzt bearbeitet von piper am 24.09.2006, 16:12 Uhr, insgesamt 2 Male bearbeitet
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 15:39 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
Beiträge: 52
Wohnort: 504945N, 01912W
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piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
You could try in init 3 or just do ctrl+alt+f1 fix-fonts and then reinstall your video card to see if you can get into x.
I highly recommend h2's script (link in my sig) for d-u and kernel upgrades but......
In the future if you want to use Kanotix-Update-GUI
You can add (copy & paste) this to your source list
# Loibl's Scripte
deb http://www.andreas-loibl.de/linux/debian/ ./
Which is located at
/etc/apt/sources.list (right click on the sources.list) > Action > Edit as Root (password) SAVE after you enter the new source
Open Konsole login as root (su or sux, password)
apt-get update
If you get a key error, copy and paste this
gpg --keyserver wwwkeys.eu.pgp.net --recv-keys 3C9C56BDF781E713 (or the last 8 digits)
hit enter, then copy and paste this
apt-key add /root/.gnupg/pubring.gpg
hit enter again
Then apt-get update again
apt-get install kanotix-update-gui
From there you can update the kernel
It will be located in K-menu > System > Kanotix-Update-GUI
Which is what I was actually trying to do, from this post ? that I found somewhere else.
The problem seems to have come from my trying to update the kernel/system via the kanotix-update-gui
I read a few things when I could only get in graphically with the live CD, and came to the conclusion that I'd have to do a dist-upgrade
so I rebooted back into the CLI on the hard drive install and ran apt-get dist-upgrade which did some stuff and it's partially got things back i.e. at the moment I can get in graphically with root and my partners user account, but if I try to log into my user account, it starts part of the way and then reverts back to the kde login page/dialogue.
I can't fathom out why this might be.
I'm guessing that the update has had some effect on some of the system settings, because I had an additional option line in my xorg.conf that gave the screen size - this seems to have disappeared, making my screen look like I'm reading it from 10 metres distance (font sizes etc very small).
I'm going to follow the link in your sig piper to find H2's script and see if I can run that.
I'll post back.
regards
fatbloke |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 16:02 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 03. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 1544
Wohnort: out there somewhere
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If the script don't work you may try deleting your account and adding another (backup is important)
Try something like
Code:
userdel username
rm -r /home/username
then (could be same username)
Code:
adduser
Remember to add your user to the audio group in the step Additional groups (comma separated) [] for the rest I think you can use default values and can always fix later by using KUser
Reboot |
_________________
h2's d-u script
h2's rdiff-backup script
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 16:32 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
Beiträge: 52
Wohnort: 504945N, 01912W
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piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
If the script don't work you may try deleting your account and adding another (backup is important)
Try something like
Code:
userdel username
rm -r /home/username
then (could be same username)
Code:
adduser
Remember to add your user to the audio group in the step Additional groups (comma separated) [] for the rest I think you can use default values and can always fix later by using KUser
Reboot
Ha Ha!
Since I changed from Kubuntu to Kanotix (because of some nonsense about kubuntu not allowing me to install some graphics development libs so I can play with some of the gimp plugins) I've had to spend about the last 3 weeks re-ripping my music (into both FLAC and ogg format), because during my initial kanotix install I "killed" my /home - which I'd intended to leave well alone, because of the data that was (past tense, please note ).
So it's rather lucky that the link that you had in your sig to H2's script has "worked a treat".
I read the page, followed the instructions, lots of which I didn't really understand, but it offered me the choice of installing an even newer kernel version (2.6.18 I think it said). Plus after the reboot I ran it again, and got even more questions that I didn't understand  but I don't care - it all seems to be working again.
So it's gonna have to be the H2 script from now on I think.
I don't follow how I get rid of the older kernel versions though. Plus, will I have to re-install/update the H2 script everytime I want to use it ?
I'm thinking that I should probably be running it on a weekly basis or is that a bad idea ? |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 16:45 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 08. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 300
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| remove-all-kernels-completely.sh will remove ALL kernels other than the currently running one. Before running this script, be sure to boot into the kernel you want to KEEP! Also make sure you run this as root (su, sudo or sux) |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 17:06 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 03. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 1544
Wohnort: out there somewhere
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fatbloke hat folgendes geschrieben::
I don't follow how I get rid of the older kernel versions though. Plus, will I have to re-install/update the H2 script everytime I want to use it ?
I'm thinking that I should probably be running it on a weekly basis or is that a bad idea ?
For removing kernels like DD say's, type this
Code:
remove-all-kernels-completely
also, h2's script will automatically update to the newest version.
I think you would be safe doing a d-u once a week, I do one everyday but that is me  just remember to check out the NEWS section here at the forums or at #kanotix on irc to make sure it is "safe" |
_________________
h2's d-u script
h2's rdiff-backup script
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 18:10 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
Beiträge: 52
Wohnort: 504945N, 01912W
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piper hat folgendes geschrieben::
-----%<-----
I think you would be safe doing a d-u once a week, I do one everyday but that is me just remember to check out the NEWS section here at the forums or at #kanotix on irc to make sure it is "safe"
Righty ho. Hum? IRC? never had a use for it till now. 'Spose I'd better start learning.
Apart from upgrades and improvements, do you just use the same download of H2's script ? Or is it modified on such a frequent basis that it's really best to download it everytime before running it ?
regards
fatbloke. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 18:18 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 20. Aug 2006
Beiträge: 52
Wohnort: 504945N, 01912W
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DeepDayze hat folgendes geschrieben::
remove-all-kernels-completely.sh will remove ALL kernels other than the currently running one. Before running this script, be sure to boot into the kernel you want to KEEP! Also make sure you run this as root (su, sudo or sux)
Cheers DD.
Now I'm starting to get my head round kanotix - it's dawning on me just how good a piece of work it really is.
The very word "scripts" is a little on the scarey side, if, like me, you're not used to them.
They seem rather "white mans magic, when spoken with forked tongue" but maybe I'll be able to write one, one day, so that I can link my espresso machine to a switch and I can get my system to turn it on!
All extra kernels now consigned to bin. Again, TVM for the tip.
regards
fatbloke |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 21:02 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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fatbloke, the script updates itself if there is a newer version every time you run it, that was an early feature, critical because the rate of fixes and change on same days make a version released only a few hours before obsolete.
The script has to be more upto date than the stuff it is updating, by definition, and the only way to do that is to make the script first update itself then restart if required, also automatically. This is why it works, one major reason anyway. So download once, then just rerun it each time.
I do not recommend that newer users use kernels with a higher version number than the script lists as latest stable, and I especially do not recommend that release candidate kernels, when present, be used, unless you are testing etc, and are willing and able to deal with potential issues.
I also recommend that if you are going to use the script to install kernels, you always use it, that's because it uses naming conventions to create the new kernel install directories, and in the future I'll have uninstall/remove/cleanup options which will only work if these conventions are followed. The script uses the same more or less exact process as listed in the kanotix faq on kernel installs, it just automates the process.
If you have installed a new kernel and don't need a new one, start the script with the -k option and you won't get the kernel install section. Check out the -h option for a help menu that gives a list of options. I strongly recommend against selecting the -w option since that skips the warning section, which can be updated any second of any day.
You don't need to be in init 3 to view the help options, in console in kde just run this:
du-fixes-h2.sh -h
and you will see the list of available options. This is the only case you can run the script without being root or in init 3, by the way.
So you can run it once a week, which is a good time frame for doing dist-upgrades I'd say. All new fixes will be in the script, and believe me, unless you like hanging out on irc most of the day, you won't know the need for these fixes, or how to implement them.
Always take a quick look at the kanotix.com website news/start pages to make sure that there is no current warnings. If there are unresolved issues wait until they get resolved.
If the fixes are scriptable, they are usually in the du-fixes script within hours of coming out, and if they aren't, they are included in the warning section of the du-fixes script. If the warning section is in red, do not proceed. The red state usually only lasts for a day or less, so you can just run the script again to see if hte warning has been resolved. Read the warnings, they change routinely. Because I'm very conservative with warnings and safety, in many cases I've had warnings up before they were posted on the start page.
Scripts have a huge advantage over gui stuff because you can modify them and tweak them much faster and more reliably then gui stuff. And they are easy to maintain.
I give a significant amount of information to users, but not too much, with the idea that you actually try to follow and read what the script says, so you can start learning what is actually happening.
Many fixes etc are designed to only run once, and will only run once, by the way, that happens because there is a preference file that lists settings and selections that have been run already when required. |
_________________
Read more on dist-upgrades using du-fixes-h2.sh script.
New: rdiff-backup script
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 24.09.2006, 23:03 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 08. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 300
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| Think of a script as just another program you run, fatbloke |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 25.09.2006, 00:59 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 26. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 389
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While I've never used h2's script, it seems to me that it has been "beta-tested" sufficiently to be known to work rather well for updates. I don't know if there's a problem but I'd like to suggest that the script be a part of kanotix scripts that are installed and updated when you do update scripts. And perhaps the recommendation to use h2's script should be a part of the wiki. This way it can be a part of kanotix's standard way to be recommended when update problems arise or when someone wants to do a d-u after a long while, or even a standard option to do d-u in kanotix.
BTW FB, glad things worked out well for you. I'm sure you see that this community is pretty helpful. |
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 25.09.2006, 01:09 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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update scripts actually doesn't do anything but update every script ending in *.sh in /usr/local/bin, or try to. Of course it only updates the ones in the kanotix.com/files directory, not others.
That's actually why I had to stop using it in the script, because when users have many other scripts in there, it takes forever to run through all those file does not exist errors from wget. So the script now updates them by name, when needed. This is, by the way, the only time I've actually bypassed any of the built in kanotix scripts, and I only did it after I saw that it was causing some users problems, and that it was easy to work around it without changing the purpose at all.
As it is, it's easy enough to get, easy enough to run, and users really should read the home page of that script, which is edited and changed all the time, the first time they run it, just so they start getting some idea of the process and what is going on.
This is why there are no direct download links provided for that script by the way, not here, and not on irc factoids. First time users really have to at least give a good try at educating themselves, that's part of what I try to make the script do. As kano said, and I really like the quote:
Zitat:
a newbe can not be proud to have that status forever
so the point is to start learning, even if the script helps the process along and makes failure less likely.
Although, heh heh, I have to admit I really like using it for fresh installs since it includes everything I ever want to do on new installs, all in one script, so it makes the process really easy. Including removing/adding unwanted/wanted packages, and all that fun stuff.
I will have to add one more install feature though now that I think of it, a package install option that shamelessly simply installs all the packages I personally want, but that users don't necessarily need or want, things like nano for example, sysv-rc-conf too, which dumps the freeze stuff, so not good for average kanotix users. |
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Read more on dist-upgrades using du-fixes-h2.sh script.
New: rdiff-backup script
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 25.09.2006, 05:48 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 05. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 414
Wohnort: Auckland, New Zealand
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Hey FB, I just love that pic you use.
h2 hat folgendes geschrieben::
I do not recommend that newer users use kernels with a higher version number than the script lists as latest stable, and I especially do not recommend that release candidate kernels, when present, be used, unless you are testing etc, and are willing and able to deal with potential issues.
I agree ... look at the left of this page you are looking at ... see where it says "Stable Kernels"? ... well those are the ones to chose from h2's script. Choose "slh64" if you have a 64 bit cpu. Most users have a standard 32 bit cpu and should choose the normal "slh-up" one. "up" stands for uni-processor (or something like that) and is intended for users with only one standard 32 bit cpu. The "kanotix" one (that's the name as of when I'm posting this, but sometimes you'll see "slh-smp") if you have more than one processor, or a processor that supports hyperthreading.
Also note, if you have installed 3d graphics drivers because you have an nvidia or ati card, then each time you upgrade your kernel, you'll have to re-install the 3d graphics drivers (otherwise you wont be able to boot into X). h2's script will help with that, giving you the choice of re-installing them. If you don't use 3d graphics drivers, then you won't have to re-install any graphics drivers at all, ever.
Another point, a lot of gui apps are really scripts ie they have a bash script underneath that do the real stuff. In fact scripts are so integrated into linux, I'm not sure you could have linux without any shell script support. So what I'm saying is, they are some unknown to be scared of.
As for how frequently you should dist-upgrade, well using h2's script, every week would be a good idea if you want to stay current. If you only dist-upgraded once a year, then there will have been so many changes that it's quite a mission to do it (as you found out), but doing it once a week will mean that you alway stay up with the play.
But in saying that, "dist-upgrading is always a dance" (to quote etorix, who lives at #kanotix). Before h2's script, I was recommending that people new to kanotix should not do dist-upgrades. But h2's script makes it a lot safer. Even though, you still might run into problems and find that, for example, X wont boot or you lose your internet connection, although as said, h2's script makes this less likely to happen.
If being up-to-date isn't that important to you, and if learning some of that way linux works (behind the scenes) isn't important to you, then the other way of doing it would be to wait until the next kanotix Stable Release comes out = 2006-XY, and upgrade install that (which should keep your /home and a few other things, but you'll have to apt-get install any apps that you had manually installed on your previous install, and again wait until the next kanotix Stable Release after that comes out = 2007-XY, and upgrade install that ... and so on. |
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Linux is evolution, not intelligent design - Linus Torvalds
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Titel:
Verfasst am: 25.09.2006, 05:58 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 27. Jun 2005
Beiträge: 258
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| (edited out - advice already stated better by others) |
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