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Titel: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
 Verfasst am: 30.09.2006, 22:25 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 05. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 414
Wohnort: Auckland, New Zealand
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I was chatting to one of the knowledgable kanotix guru's a few weeks ago and he said that although most others use "apt-get dist-upgrade", he uses "apt-get upgrade" instead. He talked me into doing that same, which I've been doing for the last few weeks.
He said that although existing packages would be upgraded when using "upgrade", a few packages are also held back. That is because an "upgrade" wont upgrade any packages that would mean it would have to install new packages or remove any existing packages. "dist-upgrade" on the other hand is more aggressive and will install new packages and even remove some existing ones.
What attracted me to what he was saying, is that he said that while others had posted on this forum how they have had major problems with cups breaking, azureus being removed and other problems that come into the sid repos, he hadn't experienced any of those problems as "upgrade" wouldn't install the new buggy versions, and also wont remove existing apps. He said that the held-back packages will mostly still be naturally upgraded on his system down that road, when things settle down.
So I tried it and, for example, I could see that "xchat" was being held back (as it wanted to install or remove something new), but after a few days xchat was upgraded! ... and this was still only using "upgrade", as it's dependences were naturally upgraded and so allowed it to be upgraded.
And just sure enough, new versions of xorg and open office are dripping into the sid repos and are causing uses problems ... eg how yesterday's dist-upgrade destroys open office, and how users who have fallen into that trap have to remove it and install the testing version of open office ... but for me, "upgrade" held back open office, and so I wasn't affected, and I can still use my sid version of open office. I fully expect that when things settle down, open office will be naturally upgraded with "upgrade" ... might even take a few weeks.
I've been told that some things won't naturally "upgrade" into my system, as they are too major or completely new packages. For those things, I've been told to make sure they have settled down for a while, and then apt-get install them specifically.
So I'm very happy with my "upgrade" policy instead of "dist-upgrade" as it leads to less problems. But because I'm not getting the very very latest in sid, but getting more stability, then it can be argued that I'm in between "testing" and "unstable". Well, I think that I am sid, no question, although some may see it as 90% sid.
I did some searching and it seems that a lot of "pure" debian sid users recommend "upgrade" instead of "dist-upgrade" (although there are a lot of good arguments for both sides). Most of the kanotix gurus recommend dist-upgrades from what I can tell.
I think if users are sick of putting a lot of work into their system, but still want to stay up-to-date, then "apt-get upgrade" may be a good idea. For those others who have linux as their hobby, and who read lots of articles and/or hang out at #kanotix on IRC, then they will want to do dist-upgrades and stay up with the play in terms of the latest bugs etc. |
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Linux is evolution, not intelligent design - Linus Torvalds
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Titel: RE: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
Verfasst am: 30.09.2006, 22:31 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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I will look forward to seeing the arguments given for or against this here. I've wondered the same, but since this particular guru is in a very distinct minority, I'd like to see our other gurus comment on what the actual problems long term of this approach actually are.
I've thought of testing this claim too by the way, but have a hard time justifying it since all systems are full on go with dist-upgrade after close to one year, but then again, I have to keep up with this stuff more than most people because of my script.
While I know the general explanation is that stable is upgraded until dist-upgrade is required to bring it to the next stable version, I'm not as clear on why dist-upgrade is required for safe long term sid use.
By the way, thanks for posting this question, I was thinking of doing the same thing too. It's worth re-examining this matter now and then so people can actually understand why this particular practice is a good or bad idea. |
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Read more on dist-upgrades using du-fixes-h2.sh script.
New: rdiff-backup script
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Titel: RE: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
Verfasst am: 30.09.2006, 23:37 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 03. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 1544
Wohnort: out there somewhere
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Titel: RE: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
Verfasst am: 01.10.2006, 00:33 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 12. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 1005
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Titel: RE: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
Verfasst am: 01.10.2006, 01:21 Uhr
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Team Member
Anmeldung: 03. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 1544
Wohnort: out there somewhere
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I would say dependency problems with apps as being the biggest reason, I know there are more and has been in several topics of why, I would have to look again, but, the prefered way in sid (kanotix) is dist-upgrade, yes does not answer your question, but will have to look myself  |
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h2's d-u script
h2's rdiff-backup script
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Titel: RE: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
Verfasst am: 01.10.2006, 13:19 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Nov 2005
Beiträge: 112
Wohnort: Venezuela
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I used to dist-upgrade weekly, more or less, with 2005-Easter-rc
But, I have been following the "upgrade" path for a couple of weeks.
Ever since OOo204rc1 hit the Sid repos. It installed OK,
but I had problems with race condition while setting paragraph properties.
Upgrade-Installed 2006-01-RC3.
Removed all vestiges of OOo24-rc1 with Synaptic.
Disabled the Sid repo, leaving only "testing" and Kanotix. Then
# aptitude update && aptitude upgrade
every few days.
As root:
* Installed OOo203-6 from Etch repo.
* Installed printer with CUPS via Firefox at http://localhost:631/
* Installed printer in OOo with /usr/lib/openoffice/program/spadmin
Printer works, music works, OOo203-6 works.
Generally install new things with Synaptic for the ease of seeing what
and which is available. I also installed kde-devel and checkinstall
to be able to compile Krusader and whatever else seems needed.
Works for me.
I have used the same system off and on over the last year
with no problems. Generally, when I need/want stability to assure
being able to work on my system without having to fix anything.
I do, usually, install a new Kanotix release when available and
then dist-upgrade so long as the repos are fairly stable,
or at least no reported problems or none indicated by aptitude.
Or I have no pressing need for 100% accesibility.
I used to use Windows for years at a time with little change except
for new apps and a couple of updates. Since Linux is more stable
and Sid more generally up to date, it seems less likely to cause problems.
I'd like to hear about other experiences. I will leave this configuration
for a while to see how it progresses. |
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kanotix-2006-01, 2.6.18.5-slh-up-1, IceWM, Krusader; P4, 2.8GHz, 512MB
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Titel: RE: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
Verfasst am: 01.10.2006, 16:35 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 29. Mar 2005
Beiträge: 96
Wohnort: Terra
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Personally I use Synaptic and update a few packages at a time. I use apt-listbugs and keep up with the "news" so I know what not to upgrade.
If there are problems I will either not upgrade or if their is a fix use it. Occassionally I will use H2's script and do a d-u. I am using Easter RC4 , only major problem I ran into was OO, which I fixed by install it from Testing. |
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Easter Rc4 IceWeasel 2.6.18.3-slh-up-1
How to Learn and Use GNU/Linux
My Debian sources.list
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Titel: RE: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
Verfasst am: 01.10.2006, 19:38 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 13. Feb 2005
Beiträge: 87
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| When should we expect OO to be fixed in SID? |
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Titel: Re: RE: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
Verfasst am: 01.10.2006, 20:13 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 22. Jan 2006
Beiträge: 448
Wohnort: Dresden
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ekp hat folgendes geschrieben::
When should we expect OO to be fixed in SID?
The big will be fixed when the packages for 2.0.4 are built properly. I think we will have to wait some days. |
_________________
Scanmetender[Soft] - Tender security solutions for your computer.
Scanmetender Standard - It is free! For GNU/Linux and Windows(R).
http://www.scanmetender.com
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
Verfasst am: 03.10.2006, 02:17 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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| When I used to use Libranet 4.0 (& earlier) I got accustomed to doing what Swynndla posted & when I started using Kanotix (2005-04-Lite-RC24 then 2006-Easter-RC4), I used what was recommended most often, which is to dist-upgrade. When I did apt-get upgrade, things worked as stated in the initial post.. Things were held back because of dependencies, & I let it go at that UNLESS it was a package that I felt I really had to have, then I downloaded & installed the dependent files, checking with apt-cache show or showpkg & apt-get -f install & spent a lot of time reading what was being removed, upgraded, etc. I had a mixed system of sid & testing, but it worked pretty darn good. There are work-arounds with apt to get something installed, but like I say, it can be very time consuming. I don't think most people want to mess around that much. Waiting for pkgs to be improved & moved to a more stable repository is less risky. The Kanotix team has done a wonderful job getting the newest pkgs to work together for an unparalled distribution IMHO. |
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illegitimati non carborundum
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
Verfasst am: 03.10.2006, 02:44 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 13. Mai 2005
Beiträge: 732
Wohnort: Texas
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There was a Libranet 4.0? I always wanted to try 3.0 but never could.
And - gee - I have never seen a piece of of software so carefully kept off the torrent networks (not that I ever looked) |
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Always acknowledge a fault. This will throw those in authority off their guard and give you an opportunity to commit more.
Mark Twain
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Titel: RE: Re: RE: upgrade or dist-upgrade?
Verfasst am: 03.10.2006, 03:41 Uhr
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Anmeldung: 07. Dez 2005
Beiträge: 369
Wohnort: Port Angeles, Wa. USA
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jackiebrown:
Well-GEE-Maybe it WAS 3.0--So crucify me. As your sig says I should do, I admit a fault. I get my distro's mixed up, as I've used a lot of them since then, but I hope you feel satisfied for pointing that out. I've since thrown away the disc, so I didn't have it to refer to. It was a good dist. until personal tragedy befell the family, & no improvements were made. The originator (Jon) died leaving his son (Tal)) all by himself to try & carry on. He was only in his twenties at the time, & understandably wanted to pursue other matters. It held true to it's debian base, as does Kanotix. |
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illegitimati non carborundum
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